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Forums => Build journals => Topic started by: Marek.Z.N on 06 May 2019, 01:26:54 pm

Title: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 06 May 2019, 01:26:54 pm
Hey all,
 I am on the final stages of planning my cyclekart build and plan on starting before the end of the month. It will be a Delage 15-S-8 but as a modern interpretation (matte black, sleek look, LEDs, modern steering wheel etc). I will be building it the 'wrong' way round, starting with the bodywork, tub and formers which I want to be all one big unit that just slips into the chassis. I will still be helping dad (Stefan) with things on the Bugatti but expect to see lots of updates from me in the near future.

Marek  :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Steve Cole on 15 June 2019, 08:53:24 am
Great news Marek, weíre all looking forward to seeing this one
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: TheGiantTribble on 15 June 2019, 03:22:44 pm
Can't wait to see some pictures of this build.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 14 August 2019, 11:09:22 am
THE BUILD HAS BEGUN!

 I have finally started the delage modern build. Every stage of this build will have its own short youtube video so that will be an easy way of you all seeing what I've done and how. if you have any suggestions on how I should do this or anything I should change about what I have already done please do say.

 Due to design changes of the main chassis I have started with the wheels, pulling the old bearings and putting the new bearings in the front and fitting tyres to them all. More on this will be shown in the first video which should be done soon. :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Graham Hill on 14 August 2019, 03:34:03 pm
Looking forward to the build journal Marek. If you are looking for advice, I suggest you follow your own previous style....  ;) ..... Seriously, put your own mark on it, show us oldies a young perspective. We need variety. Good man.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: TheGiantTribble on 14 August 2019, 08:17:52 pm
Great a video showing how to do the bearing, I feel certain this is one of the sticking points for people starting out.
Expect it to be popular :-)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 17 August 2019, 10:52:50 pm
THE VIDEO IS UP!!!!! please watch it and share. As usual put any questions either on here or on the comments of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNiN4FEuVI
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Graham Hill on 18 August 2019, 10:53:50 am
Absolutely brilliant Marek. Who is that old bloke who keeps getting in your way!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 18 August 2019, 11:32:48 am
I have no idea!!! But I can't complain because he makes mysterious packages, with cyclekart parts inside, appear for me. ;D
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Applejack on 18 August 2019, 12:35:42 pm
Great  video  Marek very useful keep them coming. We're  did you get the wheels from.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 18 August 2019, 02:34:14 pm
Thank you. The wheels were bought online from a pit bike dealer. He sells them in pairs but had 4 front wheels from using the rears in warranties.

Sadly it was just a one off but if there is a motorbike store near you or online they might be able to help.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 20 August 2019, 02:07:42 pm
Great video (some of us old fellas might not enjoy the "music?"  ;D)
For easier results, use a firm bench and a heavier hammer, fewer hits do less damage .
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 21 August 2019, 09:21:37 am
thanks for the advice Rhys  :) :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 21 August 2019, 09:25:13 am
UPDATE:

The rail pieces are cut and laid out on a piece of reinforced MDF as a worktable for welding. My chassis is stupidly complex but I think it will be worth it and things are going pretty smoothly so far...  :)

Another video will be out when it is welded so hopefully before Stretton.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 30 August 2019, 06:23:14 pm
Hiya all,
Chassis video part 1 out. As we are on holiday editing took about twice the normal time due to being on a laptop rather than my desktop which is considerably faster! The part 2 should HOPEFULLY be out before stretto but thats not guaranteed. Lots of planning has happened in the last week and I've had some exciting ideas about the "modern" aspect of the build. More about that soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwmezQLzss&t=26s

Watch it if you want and feel free to ask any questions you want about that video or the build.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 30 August 2019, 10:53:02 pm
AND ANOTHER VIDEO IS UP!!!!

Chassis build part 2 is up on youtube. This is what you will be seeing at stretton from me this Sunday. I even included some different music for different tastes ;) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qEh5r36U8Y&t=1s

once again, share and ask away with any questions or improvements you have to both my cyclekart and editing skills.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: TheGiantTribble on 31 August 2019, 03:40:19 am
Excellent progress.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 31 August 2019, 09:59:48 am
Coming on well, looking forward to seeing it at Stretton, should be a good day.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 14 September 2019, 10:41:51 am
the rail part of the chassis is done!

School has slowed me down lots but I'm currently editing the last chassis video and I think the next thing to do is suspension. I'm intrigued to see what you all have to say about my suspension because I'm trying something I haven't seen on a cyclekart yet...  front sliders. Springs have been ordered and I'm waiting for them to arrive.

cheers, Marek
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 14 September 2019, 04:30:12 pm
Do you mean sliding pillar like a Morgan? Though I've now got 30mm diameter springs fitted, rather than the 40mm ones shown. I'd avoid building in camber as the camber increases as the kart leans, I'm going to have to modify mine to take the camber out.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 15 September 2019, 12:36:18 pm
by sliding I mean the leaf spring is fixed at the back but at the front there is no eye, it slides through a shackle. its not very common but was used on some pre-war cars including one of the 4 origonal delage 15-S-8s. its something different but I thought I would give it a go
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 15 September 2019, 01:16:46 pm
Known as a "sliding trunnion". Common on many sporting type cars at the rear. Normally the trunnion that it slides through is able to rotate in it's housing to a limited extent. Often bronze.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Slack Alice on 15 September 2019, 01:53:58 pm
Wouldnít that need a pair of parallel radius arms?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: StefanN on 15 September 2019, 02:41:47 pm
They're also known as "slipper springs" and the flat end to the leaf is supported in a trunnion.  The Bugatti Type 35 family have them as the rear mount of the front leaf.  I think the Napier Railton may even have them at the front.  They are still used today on some vehicles with leaf springs.

One end of the leaf still has an eye which locates the front axle front to back so there's no special need for a radius arm - at least on any of the period cars I've looked at. 
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 15 September 2019, 03:10:34 pm
Ah, yes I see what you mean now.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 15 September 2019, 06:12:20 pm
video 3 of the chassis is up. enjoy  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yupa_zrrw4


P.S. I thought my suspension choice might bring up some discussion. I will explain more when the springs arrive.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 20 September 2019, 07:13:54 am
hi all,

My springs have arrived.
I can start on the front suspension soon now, the springs are looking good and I'm intrigued to see what you guys think :) :)

Marek
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: ChrisS on 20 September 2019, 06:10:23 pm
They look quite flat, is your axle going under or over?

Great videos by the way Marek, keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 22 September 2019, 09:48:45 am
Thanks Chris,

The axle is going on top and the flatness and this is to lower the ride height from the original plan of 16cm down tabour 7cm if I remember correctly
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Adrian on 05 October 2019, 12:11:09 pm
Love it. Can't wait for more videos. Your saw shows the value of carefully drawing things before diving-in freehand. I am definitely getting one, they make a great job
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 05 October 2019, 01:15:23 pm
thanks. things are going much more slowly because of school and the endless amounts of revision and work that brings. still working away at it though and will make lots of progress in the upcoming half term
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 16 October 2019, 03:34:23 pm
I'm tempted to follow you and go electric with the next kart, more expensive but easier installation in limited space. I'm at a model show this weekend, so I'll have a chat with Iain on the battery stand (trade prices), and see what ideas he can come up with.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 16 October 2019, 08:47:07 pm
ooh do share what you learn
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 18 October 2019, 10:34:33 am
Will do Marek, I'm looking at a 72V 3Kw brushless motor and controller with two syage regenerative braking. Inclined to go with NIMH batteries as they're sturdier electrically, no need for BMS. A 10Ah pack should give just under 15 minutes running at full power (41A draw), so with two packs one could be charging while the other is in use. I think the battery cost could ne the killer for me going electric, not outweighed by the easier installation in the confined space available.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 20 October 2019, 08:39:14 am
I am planning on using the golden motors 3KW motor (there are 2, either the 48V or 72V) and we haven't thought about batteries except for the fact that we need them and should probably try and get a company to sponsor them.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 20 October 2019, 05:25:24 pm
The 72V motor would be more efficient than the 48V one due to the lower  current, and therefore lower heating losses. The battery cost would be much the same, as the lower voltage would need a higher capacity due to the higher current, in order to get the same duration.

I've had a ball park price from my battery supplier of £400 for a 72V 9Ah NIMH battery, and £600 for a 13Ah one, so as I suspected that rules out going electric.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 20 October 2019, 05:59:55 pm
also 72V is quite high and we spoke to someone from Surrey university's formula student team for some advice and he recommended not going above 50V because thats when things start to get more dangerous.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 30 October 2019, 09:30:09 pm
The last 3 days I have been working on the front suspension and a video will be coming out asap about that. Tomorrow I will be making the plates and U bolts to hold the front axle on, hopefully by stretton on Sunday I will have a chassis on all 4 wheels. :D
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 30 October 2019, 10:50:04 pm
There it is. Video uploaded.

As always, please do share any ways you think I could improve my videos and feel free to ask any questions about the build :D :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvby7QltptU
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 31 October 2019, 09:27:45 am
Great video Marek, stainless is a pain to work with, eats tools unless it's flooded with cutting fluid and you take small bites quickly. A slow cut will heat the steel through the tool rubbing, and it'll harden it, which is why it can be so difficult to work.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 31 October 2019, 10:26:47 pm
thanks for the advice
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 31 October 2019, 10:29:44 pm
Another day, another video.

part 4 is here and I have a wheel attached to the chassis!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2rwlT_AKzQ
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 01 November 2019, 06:50:50 am
Another good video Marek. If I can a few observations though.
Your idea of not clamping your work will one day lead to a lot of pain, or worse. In a previous you were using a centre drill. That is the tool for getting your work properly aligned and then clamp it down, check again, and then replace the centre drill with drill bits. As you have available the great drill press you can wind the table down as you use longer, greater diameter drills. Please, I don't want to see you with some of the scars I have from trying to hold work pieces, even with mole grips, let alone by hand. I have shed a lot of blood from not  following good work practices. (In my case frequently from not having the equipment you have)
There's an old workshop saying" hacksaw with one hand, soon you will have only one hand to use". If/when you break a hacksaw blade, and the broken piece spears into the ball of the thumb of the hand you were holding your work piece, you will know why. Both hands on the saw, one doing the work at the handle, the other guiding at the front, always.
On your Christmas wish list, add an engineers hammer :) Carpenters hammer is for nails . You can never have enough hammers for the right purposes.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 01 November 2019, 08:21:09 am
Thanks Rhys. The drill bits I am using are the only (sharp) drill bits we have and for now they are working but I agree that I should clamp the work piece down after making sure the pilot holes are in the correct place (my fault with that one). With the hacksaw I try to guide the front when I can but to start off the cut it is much easier to carefully guide it with the side of your thumb.
And an engineers hammer sounds like it would be a good investment, do you recommend any types or companies? ;D
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 01 November 2019, 09:53:03 am
Rhys got in before me with the clamping, I've just bought a decent cast iron drill vice (the last one was feeble), and a cross vice, neither of them expensive. I gave up on holding things by hand some years ago, after all dexterity matters to me, it's my livelyhood.

With hacksawing, as soon as you've got a groove cut then it's both hands on the saw, also cut in long strokes, using as much of the blade as possible. That's what I was taught in metalwork over 40 years ago.

Best advice I can give you is pick up a hammer before you buy, and choose one that feels good. I bought two repousse hammers off ebay, for class members to use when I taught enammeling (my hammer is sacrosanct). One is horrible to use, and the other is good enough to replace mine. One that's comfortable to use is more important than a particular brand, the days of dodgy cheap hammers are long gone thankfully.

You need two ball pein hammers, one light one about 4oz, and a heavier one 8oz, a repousse is handy for light metal forming.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 02 November 2019, 08:11:11 am
we have brought more hammers across to the garage including a light ball peen hammer so that is sorted. Hopefully you will see in the next video ;) and thank you for the hacksaw advice as you will also see that in the next video ;D
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 10 November 2019, 04:58:26 pm
As you asked about hammers, I still don't have all I ould like, but I have used all of these so far in the current build.
Next buy is a planishing hammer.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 06 January 2020, 05:25:46 pm
Update. It rolls....
We were taking pictures so I can plan the rest of the build but this is what I have got so far. I have a few options when it comes to seats but it will either be the go kart seat you can see in this picture or a low, thin but functional, metal seat bolted to the chassis. It also looks like my double external brake plan might just work, the axle is just the right size. The bottom end of the steering is built and the wheel is fitted to the hub, just need to join them. The steering wheel is an OMP steering wheel which was a Christmas present (thanks dad) which should look cool with the modern feel. I now need to plan the bodywork/frame for the rest of the build. I also still need to work out the electric drivetrain.

As always, any questions just ask

Marek
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 06 January 2020, 05:26:09 pm
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Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 06 January 2020, 05:26:33 pm
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Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 06 January 2020, 05:26:48 pm
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Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 06 January 2020, 05:27:05 pm
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Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: TheGiantTribble on 06 January 2020, 07:03:56 pm
Looking better each time, it's going to be so worth all that work in the end :-)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 07 January 2020, 06:10:49 pm
thats the plan ;)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Graham Hill on 08 January 2020, 10:27:36 am
Real MEN wear shorts in winter !!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 30 January 2020, 09:08:21 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzk1FvxpjN8
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 31 January 2020, 08:27:34 am
That's a great succinct video Marek. Don't forget the crush tubes where the bolts for your bracket pass through the cross member. :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 03 February 2020, 09:35:23 pm
thank you. not sure if we will need them due to spreading the load on both sides of the tube.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: TheGiantTribble on 04 February 2020, 09:08:42 am
Excellent short and to the point...also excellent music choice :-)

Re the melting milk bottles, how blow lamp, oven and did you need to compress the melted goo,
or does it get dense enough just by the melting? Also how many milk bottles?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 04 February 2020, 09:30:55 am
thank you. not sure if we will need them due to spreading the load on both sides of the tube.
Ideally wherever bolts pass through tubes there should be crush tubes, especially where the wall thickness is as thin as "we" use. They don't have to be welded in place, one side hole just big enough to let the tube (or "top hat") in, and the tube butts against the inside wall on the other face. It allows for the proper clamping force to be applied. FWIW I get growled at by my son whenever I don't use them and a torque wrench on every bolt.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 05 February 2020, 07:23:34 pm
Quote
Ideally wherever bolts pass through tubes there should be crush tubes, especially where the wall thickness is as thin as "we" use. They don't have to be welded in place, one side hole just big enough to let the tube (or "top hat") in, and the tube butts against the inside wall on the other face. It allows for the proper clamping force to be applied. FWIW I get growled at by my son whenever I don't use them and a torque wrench on every bolt.

okay thanks Rhys. Will add some
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 05 February 2020, 07:24:49 pm
And the milk bottles were heated in an oven until they had gone soft and 'napalm like' then clamped in a square container and left overnight to cool.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: TheGiantTribble on 06 February 2020, 09:32:54 am
Thanks for the info re milk bottles.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 15 April 2020, 07:10:08 pm
Today i was back at it and continued work on the formers. This plan shows half of the former i am working on (the dashboard) the metal is bent and welded to the angle iron at the bottom. now need to make the metal gussets around the inside and then edit the video. When i then make the other former only 15cm forward i will have a bulkhead which will be very similar in design (not shape) to the one found on a Bugatti type 35 or 37. happy to be back working on something
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 15 April 2020, 08:03:24 pm
Hi Marek, nice drawings. Are you sure you need to be using such heavy material? I have never used 3 mm on full sized cars. There is a difference between over engineering, and over material. Can I suggest being a bit more clever with the design and less with the iron mongery. You have the chance here to be clever, triangulation, folding edges etc and save a lot of weight.The heaviest in my Lotus 11 was 1.6 with folded edges, mostly 1.2 mm. Yes I know Lotus were fragile.
The Morgan has nothing over 2 mm so far,  and 80 years old.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 16 April 2020, 11:35:32 am
i will keep that in mind. the main reason for such thick material was it is all we have at the moment and we are ordering more metal (including lots of 20x2mm) that will be used for the gussets and the other formers
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 16 April 2020, 12:18:04 pm
Fair enough. I guess I do try to keep that weight suggestion of maximum (Stevensons) of 250 lbs. Most of mine are more like 200 lbs. On the full size Peugeot I'm building the original scuttle angle was 20 by 1.2 angle, and lasted from 1923, so I replicated that. B & Q have some very good angle sections and others worth looking at.
I'm guessing that the Bugattis you were close to had pretty thin materials too. Lucky lad  to have been that close!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: StefanN on 16 April 2020, 01:10:04 pm
Hi Marek, nice drawings. Are you sure you need to be using such heavy material? I have never used 3 mm on full sized cars. There is a difference between over engineering, and over material. Can I suggest being a bit more clever with the design and less with the iron mongery. You have the chance here to be clever, triangulation, folding edges etc and save a lot of weight.The heaviest in my Lotus 11 was 1.6 with folded edges, mostly 1.2 mm. Yes I know Lotus were fragile.
The Morgan has nothing over 2 mm so far,  and 80 years old.
Where do you get 2mm flat bar from?  Most places I've used go down to 3mm.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 16 April 2020, 03:53:56 pm
I buy my thin materials from local steel suppliers as sheet then cut what I want with the angle grinder with 1 mm disc (as on my Morgan rebuild page).
I have also bought from B & Q under their builders metals. I was going to provide a link, but says a 59 minute queue right now. They have a variety of angles of various sizes, round and square tubes, flat bar mesh etc. I have just checked and I have a short section of 25 by 2mm flat bar, still with the B & Q bar code.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 16 April 2020, 06:16:59 pm
I use FH Brundle for most of my steel, they have a varied selection of stock bar, flat ect. Also lots wrought iron bits to weld together and make garden ornaments that your wives won't actually allow you to put in the garden.  ;D
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 16 April 2020, 06:27:10 pm
I have also quite often when I only need small bits  gone to sheet metal fabricators and got offcuts for free.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 17 April 2020, 09:50:51 am
Marek and Stefan, I do understand that right now you may be controlled more by what you have, and to an extent what is available on line in these weird times.
Please accept that I may be offering thoughts of what would be nice. You mention 20 by 2 mm, yet your drawing showed 3 mm, 2 is a whole lot better I believe. I do keep an eye on what has been put out at the side of the road for the [people] to get, sometimes there is stuff I can use! BBQs are being thrown out round here, lots of sheet metal.
Are you able to access any of the racing car design books? Costin and Phipps  "Racing and Sports Car chassis design" while now over 50 years old is still a base point for steel chassis design. There is a lot in there about bracket making, diaphragm frames and such.
Likewise I know that you now have time and want to make progress, if you can, just do a bit more research of lighter ways to do things, more complex but you will make a car you will be proud to show off as you will anyway.
As an example of where I'm coming from, have a look at the Austin chassis you have. It's lasted nearly 100 years. Then have a look at the approx 1950s steering wedge and think if, with the knowledge you now have, and equipment, could you do something less blacksmith. Again, no criticism of the bracket, it's what was done and actually promoted in books of the Austin special builders in the 1950s, can it now be done differently?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 17 April 2020, 12:25:21 pm
When lockdown is over i will check out some sheet metal companies to see if they have any cutoffs. dad made an order yesterday for all sorts of strip metal so should have more to work with soon. if we need more will check out FH brundle. thanks for the advice Jim. If i want to reduce some weight from my cyclekart i can always drill some holes out in places that wont make it too weak.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 17 April 2020, 09:02:14 pm
Slightly OT, I was once building a racing yacht (what is called a sailing dinghy in the UK) and spent an entire day cutting holes to lighten it. I saved a total of 1 pound! If I had planed down the same piece of timber from 25 mm to 20 I would have saved 3 pounds, at least as calculated. That was my lesson to try to make the material decisions early. Any how, this is your first CK Marek, I'm sure it won't be the last, so crack on and enjoy the build.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 17 April 2020, 09:23:27 pm
I love drilling holes in all my components Marek. It looks really cool. A good step drill will be your new best mate.  ;D
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 18 April 2020, 04:06:13 pm
one of the grand prix delage 15s8 chassis can be seen with holes down both sides and through different formers and i love the look
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 18 April 2020, 05:10:06 pm
Marek, what material are your chassis rails made from? Leading question relating to tools to do the same, If you can tell the hole sizes you might want to use too.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 18 April 2020, 05:53:15 pm
they are 1.5mm steel
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 19 April 2020, 02:28:10 pm
Hole size Marek?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 19 April 2020, 06:55:26 pm
i dont know. i havent looked into it
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 20 April 2020, 12:54:01 am
If you do Marek give me a shout. I may have the correct tools to do swaged holes. Tool required to go with them is a spanner.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 22 April 2020, 05:42:01 pm
A new video will be up this evening. Here is a preview of what I have been up to.... any questions on what I am doing, just ask :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 22 April 2020, 06:03:17 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4GWoxN1WDc


Here it is
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 23 April 2020, 06:59:29 am
Looking good Marek. I loved the video, interesting and informative. The quality of work is good and the progress is coming on fast. I look forward to when we are on the race track together.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 23 April 2020, 09:46:19 am
Thank you. Drivetrain is one of the big things still to decide on but most other things i just need to design details or just get on with it. In the current situation progress should be much faster and i should have a video about the second half of the steering up before the end of the week
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Applejack on 23 April 2020, 02:07:26 pm
Another great video MAREK, using the string to get the profiles is very clever. The build is progressing nicely. Looking forward to the next VIDEO.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 23 April 2020, 03:17:40 pm
Hi Marek, great progress and you have inspired me to attack the rear section of the Morgan. Have you thought a way with the slot type system to cope with the curved body sides in plan. I can see this works really well for straight lines, but can't figure the curved ones unless you only use it for making a first former then use the old fashioned bendy batten to pull the curve. Help!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 23 April 2020, 04:47:59 pm
Im not sure what you mean by curved body sides. the parts which are always attached at the bonnet are in straight lines and the curves are all linear on the bonnet and around the cockpit. I would love to find a solution though :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 23 April 2020, 05:00:55 pm
Ok thanks Marek, everything I build seems to have very few straight lines! Always a slight curve in every plane like a boat. I was hoping I could latch onto the slots and strings method, but seems like I'm back to a fairing batten. It looked so sensible!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 24 April 2020, 09:41:28 am
you could always use the idea of a long piece of plywood or something to give you the curves and put it into slots in the same manner
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 24 April 2020, 06:31:33 pm
Thanks Marek, that's what a fairing batten is.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 01 May 2020, 11:26:34 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPjVZUI84R8


ta da!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 04 May 2020, 06:02:04 pm
Dad just made a purchase for my cyclekart on a highly debated subject...... brakes. 4 pot triumph front brake callipers are on there way
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 06 May 2020, 07:19:29 am
Marek, I had a "middle of the night thought". When you gt old these become common :)
My friend Derek who has the Blower Bentley, and now another CK Vale, is another of the electric car  boffins. For the Bentley he converted from petrol power to electric for a "proof of concept", the Vale is totally electric.
Where he was clever is that he made a self contained module that could be swapped in and out quickly so that he had both electric and petrol with him at the last Tieton I went to. The base plate for both motors picked up on the same mounting points. All he had to do was undo the 4 mounting bolts of the late, disconnect the wiring and slack the chain to lift it out. The base plate ran in some carefully aligned guides so that it was always aligned for the chain run, and being larger than the base of the electric motor getting at those awkward motor bolts wasn't an issue as he never touched them after mounting it to the base plate. Mike Thorpe did much the same when he and Brian used the Mercedes at Tieton and swapped for various events, electric to gas. They had it down to 20 minutes total.
When we had the first builder's meet at my house I suggested this, and Steve Cole picked up on the guide idea, I'm sure it takes more effort to get them right, but you only have to do it once rather than every time you take the motor out.
Why am I suggesting this? Well at the virtual meeting you said you hadn't decided on a drive system Yes I did hear part of the reason. If you did as these guys have already shown is a workable system, you could have your car mobile while you figure the electrics, it would be a real shame for it to sit idle while you sort the electrics, and that is not something I would want for you. If you really wanted I have a spare genuine Honda you could borrow to get it mobile. No TAV though.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 07 May 2020, 03:20:33 pm
the brakes arrived. There are no obvious faults and they are looking like they should work
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 07 May 2020, 03:22:55 pm
Hi Marek, do you want me to find what the correct matching master cylinder size is for those from the designer?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Ron on 07 May 2020, 04:22:05 pm
Those calipers look brill, as indeed your build work in general is a great series of vids, being L/R handed is something I thought maybe was a challenge to find in small bikes but of course i needlessly forgot bigger capacity motorcycles have discs in mirror image of each other so it's nice to see stuff like those in picture , I reckon those can be tamed with a larger mastercylinder than stock or a smaller leverage ratio at the pedal as I bet those can dissipate some serious KWs of heat and motion!!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 07 May 2020, 05:43:53 pm
Yes please Rhys! that would be incredibly helpful. They are Triumph sprint st 1050 front callipers

My plan for using the brakes is to use 2 master cylinders on a balance bar for a couple of reasons. one of these is that if one break line fails for some reason i will always have the second brake to help get me to a safe standstill. the other is for the other uses like installing a parking brake into just one of the lines or installing a pressure sensor into one for the brake light (which i plan on being functional).
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 07 May 2020, 06:03:02 pm
Nice one Marek. That looks awesome. Those brakes will be really powerful and I love the video. Keep it up kid and you'll be ready when the tracks open again. 
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 07 May 2020, 11:31:44 pm
thanks jim :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 13 May 2020, 11:08:17 am
Yesterday i mocked up one half of the rear axle as you can see here. The brake callipers and disks will be on the outside of the bodywork
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 13 May 2020, 06:59:39 pm
Hi Marek, the Triumph master cylinder to match both sides was 14 mm. The disc diameter  I'm getting for you.
The caliper runs 2 x 33.96mm diameter pistons and 2 x 30.23mm diameter pistons
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 13 May 2020, 08:19:31 pm
That caliper calls for a 320mm disc with a minimum braking surface inside diameter of 283 mm.
Wow, tech stuff from the guy who deals with it day in day out.
One of the issues is that the wrong disc size means the pads can come together without actually pressing on the disc surface when they have worn. That can be delayed by watching the pad wear and replacing them before it's an issue.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 13 May 2020, 09:54:51 pm
thank you Rhys. that is really helpful
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: StefanN on 14 May 2020, 08:32:46 am
One of the issues is that the wrong disc size means the pads can come together without actually pressing on the disc surface when they have worn. That can be delayed by watching the pad wear and replacing them before it's an issue.
Are you talking about a set-up where the pads overhang the circumference of the disc and so the unworn parts of the pads will eventually touch?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Applejack on 14 May 2020, 11:36:56 am
The average life of a Motorcycle break pads is 20.000 miles.Thats a lot of laps at Stretton in a CK
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 14 May 2020, 07:25:19 pm
One of the issues is that the wrong disc size means the pads can come together without actually pressing on the disc surface when they have worn. That can be delayed by watching the pad wear and replacing them before it's an issue.
Are you talking about a set-up where the pads overhang the circumference of the disc and so the unworn parts of the pads will eventually touch?
Correct Stefan, noted on one of the CKs at Stretton. Graham is correct, if the original motorcycle pads are used in that life can be long. Hard pads of course don't give the same performance of softer pads. All those factors you have previously discussed come into play.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 15 May 2020, 12:37:49 pm
i have been looking at different options for master cylinders and i want the breaks to be two separate systems so that if one line or calliper or anything fails then i have the other system. I also want a working break light in the system somewhere and would like both master cylinders to use the same reservoir for ease of use.  Something i have found is a UTV master cylinder which has all of these things in one package. What i will probably do i get one of these and work out what size the cylinders are to see if it will work. here is a link to the part on ebay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydraulic-Brake-Master-Cylinder-Pump-For-125cc-150cc-250cc-300cc-Go-Kart-Buggy/121757744597?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D226730%26meid%3D2740e2de8a454a21a5bd0cef8a4b27dd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D193171571565%26itm%3D121757744597%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV1%26brand%3DUnbranded%2FGeneric&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Ron on 15 May 2020, 02:55:29 pm
I reckon the pads would never wear so fast to be a sudden issue especially given it's the rear axle, probably half the weight and a 10th of the available power to dissipate , as an aside 10 years ago I did have it happen to a skoda estelle which somehow had brake discs incorrectly fitted from a 136 rapid (a Czech porsche 911) and gradually as the overhanging pads touched each other over a few 1000 miles it became more and more prone to locking the rear wheels.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 15 May 2020, 03:16:51 pm
Interesting master cylinder Marek, worth considering as I'm thinking of making provision for twin rear brakes.

Chris
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 15 May 2020, 03:18:29 pm
Ron, "we" did have that issue with a cyclekart already, it's part of the reason that brakes are being given careful thought.Of course we have no idea what the pad material was.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Ron on 15 May 2020, 03:20:10 pm
Those master cylinders are hydraulically decoupled by the look so if actuated together without a compensator it is likely to have variable pedal feel unless both internal valves have exactly the same reactivity and the pads on one side suffer pad knockback to a differing degree, a either a tandem master cylinder from a car or 2 seperate master cylinders via a rocking balance bar would couple the hydraulic action against each other and also if one side failed the pedal would drop an inch to alert you of that fact, also of note it may be easiest to fit a micro switch to the pedal than a fluid switch potentially.
Having said all that it's still a neat looking unit.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Ron on 15 May 2020, 03:23:16 pm
I reckon actual triumph pads will probably be ok though, unless there is a supply of hessian epoxy copies in the supply chain haha
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 15 May 2020, 03:25:10 pm
I reckon actual triumph pads will probably be ok though, unless there is a supply of hessian epoxy copies in the supply chain haha
Triumph pads might even be harder than ideal!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 15 May 2020, 04:44:58 pm
I was thinking of using a balance beam between the two clevises, just as you would do if using a pair of cylinders.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Slack Alice on 16 May 2020, 04:46:05 pm
Donít forget that using a balance bar will halve the foot pressure to each master cylinder.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 26 May 2020, 07:50:19 am
Suggestion for you.
If the brake disc is not the same diameter as the original Triumph ones you can cut the brake pads too have them match the outside arc. That eliminates the overhanging part previously mentioned.
Angle grinder with the 1 mm discs does the job, with dust mask of course.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 28 May 2020, 07:08:24 pm
working on the kart. just working on a few bits which will all come out as videos at similar times.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Ron on 28 May 2020, 08:33:30 pm
I wonder if cycle hub motors might be the ticket for this like say a pair of 2kw ones with the bonus that they look like massive old brake drums although obviously if you have the design settled then it's still going to be great!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 04 June 2020, 06:08:10 pm
here are some screenshots of a cad design i have made for my radiator and logo. I went to town with the "modernification" of this as a radiator isnt used on an electric car and i used the tesla font for the logo. i would probably make this out of fibreglass. An idea i have had for another modern feature that would be built into the radiator is that instead of standard 1920s/30s headlight i will make pop up headlights like on a mazda miata or toyota AE86. what do you all think?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 10 June 2020, 04:29:33 pm
Another video.... Enjoy ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQgnAJg29S8
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Graham Hill on 10 June 2020, 04:47:40 pm
And it's another great one Marek! I certainly did enjoy! Thanks
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 11 June 2020, 02:21:29 pm
And here is another one :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i5VXHm7IfI
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 11 June 2020, 03:53:57 pm
Looks great Marek, nice sturdy job.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 11 June 2020, 09:41:12 pm
thanks chris
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Graham Hill on 12 June 2020, 11:08:13 am
Quality engineering Marek and these videos keep getting slicker! Has the camera got a glass lense? ... beware those flying sparks, they are really great at etching glass!  I learnt the hard way.... a repacement windscreen for my pickup! Hope to see you at Stretton.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 12 June 2020, 03:22:38 pm
the camera is an action camera which has a lens cover made for going underwater which is plastic so shouldn't etch. thank you for the advice
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 12 June 2020, 10:46:27 pm
You may find this and his previous versions of the bike interesting Marek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPyHvkypKjo
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 13 June 2020, 01:10:33 pm
ive seen this. its a clever design
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Ron on 13 June 2020, 05:55:55 pm
Great world on those calipers, there will be no issues getting it to stop!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 14 June 2020, 09:54:07 pm
A bit of a different video about the build. Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4j3rP0Tb4o
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 26 June 2020, 01:10:19 pm
The floor is in :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_bxcOoXVf0
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 26 June 2020, 03:55:08 pm
Looking good Marek, one tip when doing a lot of pop riveting, put all the rivets in, other than the holes occupied by the cleecos, pull them all down, then go back and do the odd ones. I think you'll find it's a lot quicker not having to keep putting the gun down to fit the next rivet.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 26 June 2020, 04:16:32 pm
thanks for the advice Chris. i have lots of riveing to do when i attach bodywork so will do that then.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 26 June 2020, 04:55:33 pm
I tried some blind rivetting just the other day. While it may be authentic, it's a very difficult job on your own. I would not recommend it. Pop rivets can be disguised :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 26 June 2020, 06:14:09 pm
could you explain the difference between blind rivets and pop rivets please. I didnt know there was a difference
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Chris Brown on 26 June 2020, 07:10:48 pm
You're welcome Marek, it's a time and motion thing, used to set hundreds of the things fitting skins to the van trailers I built in times gone by.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 26 June 2020, 09:25:11 pm
could you explain the difference between blind rivets and pop rivets please. I didnt know there was a difference
Of course you are right Marek. To be really fair solid rivet is the better term for the ones I was struggling with. This guy is using countersunk rivets, where I struggle single handed is where I want dome on both sides. When I was working in the marine industry we always knocked the broken "nail" out of the centre of the pop rivet as they are usually steel and corrode badly in the salt air environment, then you have to get them out of where they are! There are varieties of "pop" rivets, both material s of the rivet itself and nail, and whether the back end is open or closed.I always used the word blind for the ones with no opening on the inside. Useless fact, a 3/16 monel pop rivet properly pulled has a sheer strength of 1960 pounds. Don't try pulling monel rivets with the type of rivet gun you have, you need lazy tongs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWzcawr7BhY
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 27 June 2020, 06:08:02 am
Looks really good Marek. Being England, have you thought about some drain holes?
If you are going to be doing lots of the rivets one of these toos while being expensive saves a lot of time and makes life very easy
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 28 June 2020, 05:16:50 pm
does anyone have any good, simple, adjustable pedal ideas. i am designing the pedal assemble and want a large range of easy, quick adjustment so it is comfortable and fast for a range of sizes of people to use
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 28 June 2020, 08:39:43 pm
I mount the whole pedal assembly on a plate which then bolts into the car with multiple mounting holes. Pedal with master cylinder then flex braided line back to the caliper for the brake, and throttle with all it's bits and bowden cable back to the carb. I make my base plate from what ever is handy. Ply, alloy plate or?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 30 August 2020, 03:23:11 pm
It's been a while since i have shown any progress on the kart. Just edited a video so that i can show you all a bit of what I have been working on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgMFxCXcuy4

I am currently working on the seat, pedals, chassis/floor painting, drivetrain design and design for the rest of the build at the same time so things are happening slowly. I start school again soon but I should hopefully make quite a bit more progress over the next month or two. :)
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: sylvaman on 30 August 2020, 06:16:14 pm
Another Excellent video Marek .  Certainly is a quality build . Well done.

Are those trailer slipper springs used on the front ?

Chris L
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 31 August 2020, 07:24:29 pm
they are sliding springs that we ordered from midland motors. similar to the springs used on dad's Bugatti but slightly different dimensions and they just didn't curl the second end on them.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 06 September 2020, 04:39:19 pm
I need seat help. my question is in this video. Ideas on how to make the sheets on the base and back of my seat.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_96ANnMZo
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 07 September 2020, 06:15:44 am
It's coming along nicely Marek. If the aluminium for your seat is less than 1.6mm you could roll some beads in it to give it strength. I have a roller you are welcome to use.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 07 September 2020, 01:00:22 pm
Having had to sit through 8 hours of FIA zoom meeting last Wednesday, I managed to retain a few bits, and lo and behold maybe relevant to this Marek.
 The optimum angle between back and base (safety and comfort) has been tested at 105 degrees opening angle. Equally important was that the base angle is not more than 10 degrees from horizontal. Given that the cushion you have in your possession was designed to that Marek, flat on the floor would meet those numbers!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: ChrisS on 10 September 2020, 08:24:54 am
I'm with Rhys on this one, have the seat in two parts with the squab shape made in foam and put it straight on the floor and do away with your front hoop. You can still make provision for alternate positions if that is your intention, and you can still hinge the back if you need.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 10 September 2020, 12:26:19 pm
This is the cushion Marek has in his custody.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 10 September 2020, 04:07:41 pm
Getting rid of the bottom squab would take a lot of weight away. how would you suggest mounting the back squab with changeable angles?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 10 September 2020, 06:35:54 pm
I used a door hinge. Seems ok. Well it hasn't fallen off yet.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: RhysN on 11 September 2020, 03:01:43 pm
I, have in the past, used T hinges, bit why do you need to hinge the seat back? Access to the compartment?
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 13 September 2020, 11:36:14 am
i have come up with an idea for the hinge that i should get done today. a video will be out with how i built the frame and how I'm going to attach it to the floor when its done. (note im getting rid of the base frame as it is just unnecessary weight).
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 14 September 2020, 08:15:16 pm
Here is another video.

Please share anything you like or don't like about how I make bits and how you think I can improve designs as this will be really helpful for the rest of the CycleKart build (feel free to be harsh). Also share any design ideas you think would be interesting in my modern style CK that I haven't thought of yet or versions of what I have previously said that you think would look cooler done differently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JTHypNdTh0

Thanks,
Marek
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 15 September 2020, 05:54:16 am
I like your idea for the folding seat back. The hinge looks like it will work well and is nice and simple. Good skills young man.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 15 September 2020, 06:50:49 am
Thanks Jim. My first idea of having a seat base frame attached to the back was so overkill and heavy so I am glad I got rid of that one!
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 27 September 2020, 01:55:35 pm
Hi guys. Im very excited about this video. I hope you enjoy.

https://youtu.be/usuyVje42B0

Please share your opinion on the design for mounting and what material the bracket should be made from/thicknesses. Please also check out Wittenstein's website @ www.wittenstein.co.uk they make some great products.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: GeoffM on 27 September 2020, 06:55:44 pm
Well done Marek, I am impressed with the size, I suggest you might use a hinged platform for the chain adjustment. I would use steel only because I find it easier to weld, I dont think you will have to worry about weight to much.
cheers, Geoff
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 28 September 2020, 06:38:18 am
Excellent video Marek and I think your kart is showing us the way forward to the future. When I clicked on your link to wittenstein it came up with some lawyer site.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 28 September 2020, 07:17:01 am
It should now be the correct link
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Applejack on 28 September 2020, 09:10:04 am
Nice one MAREK like the motor and gearbox setup. It might be a good idea not to mount them to low if we are all going Off Road at the venue that Rys has organised.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 28 September 2020, 09:28:11 am
I am going to re-upload the video with the correct link as well because the wrong one is on the screen for about 2 minutes. I will modify my earlier post so that it has the correct link.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 14 October 2020, 02:50:31 pm
Waiting for some bits and pieces so i can continue the drivetrain and finish the seat. Had some scrap large sheets of paper, masking tape and some spare time so thought i would mock up the bodywork around the cockpit of the Delage. I used masking tape to create the rough curves in the same way curved stitching is achieved. then stuck paper to the back and cut the curves. this is just an approximate template before making card templates for the panels when i get on to making the bodywork.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: jim on 15 October 2020, 06:11:15 am
Its coming along nicely Marek. Are you going to make the real body from aluminium? It looks like you will be sitting low in the kart which is how i like it.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 15 October 2020, 10:27:27 am
The bodywork will be aluminium for the most part and then i will have the bonnet side panels and boat tail made out of fibreglass so i can get some more complex shapes.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Adrian on 18 October 2020, 02:14:50 pm
The project is looking very nice indeed Marek. Cool car to start with.
I know you and your Dad have done much work on the electric 'theory' behind the design and you have certainly found a nice gearbox to use.  Could you fill me in with the ideas behind using a gearbox. I thought that an electric motor would drive the axle directly.
Maximum torque for an electric motor occurs at stall and the voltage applied will determine its rpm (in the case of a brushless motor very precisely). The motor and speed controller must be capable of dealing with the resulting Amp load of course. Even off-the-road electric motorcycles manage without one.
I think it's on the USA Cyclekart site where a guy has built a few of them and an early one had a gearbox but it got ditched for the subsequent ones.

Here there is a company called 4QD (https://www.4qd.co.uk) that make speed controllers that would suit this application very well and I recommend you give them a call because they are very helpful and can advise on all aspects (Motors, batteries, speed-controllers) for such a project.

My understanding is that as long as the battery is able to deliver the voltage you need at the Amps being pulled then no gearbox is necessary and you will be 'off-the-line like lightening and top speed should be more than adequate.

I really would like to know because I am thinking about building an electric one also.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: Marek.Z.N on 18 October 2020, 08:49:29 pm
The gearbox is a single speed. 7.5:1 ratio planetary gearbox. this is doing the same thing as chain sprocket gear ratios, I just dont have enough room for a big enough sprocket to do this with sprockets so most of the ratio is taken out with the gearbox (note there is no clutch so we are using that immediate torque) and then some small sprockets finish off the ratio. I did the calculations to work out the torque needed for my target acceleration so I should outpace people out of the corners and off the line but some of the faster CKs will easily have me on the long straights. One of the other benefits of having only a small sprocket ratio is that because ratios in line multiply. I can get a couple of relatively cheap sprockets for the back axle that I can swap out depending on situation (eg. corona 30 second speed challenge or brooklands test hill would need different ratios to get the best time or top speed out of the kart). In the First drivetrain video (the only one out at the moment) I explain the ratios and what the total ratio is. I have estimated the weight of the CK as being similar to Dad's Bugatti plus a bit more for battery weight but when the kart is almost done I can have a go over and see where I can take out some weight or if there is anything I can do to reduce the weight which means I can then modify those chain ratios to get the best top speed out of my desired acceleration. I am using the Golden Motors 3KW 48V motor as this is what has been used in the states and seems to come out with similar performance to GX200 karts. As this is the lower voltage it will naturally be less efficient than its higher voltage counterpart but 48V will be much much safer and means that if I did manage to get shocked then I should be okay (I will be making sure everything is safe and will obviously not planning on getting an electric shock) but 50V is about the voltage it takes to break through dry skin so the risk of major damage to anyone is lower.
Title: Re: Delage 15-S-8
Post by: StefanN on 19 October 2020, 07:45:16 am
Marek has pretty much covered it, but a couple of extra observations/assumptions.

Whilst electric can give you high torque, itís not infinite.  The motor Marek has, peaks at about 20Nm compared to a GX200ís 13Nm.    Of course, given how bogged down our engines get when coming out of corners, itís questionable how often we achieve peak torque from the gassers - the electric motor should perform better in these circumstances.

The current drawn ramps up very quickly for peak torque, so Marekís motor draws 100A for 20Nm.   Our research so far says that the safe peak current for the batteries we can get is about 2C - ie twice the capacity of the battery. So, for 100A, Marek will need 50Ah batteries.    This is starting to create another design constraint, because 48V, 50Ah batteries will add significant weight and size, not to mention cost.

One aspect of this is to apply engineering principles and then compare them to real life performance.   Itís not as direct a route as copying what someone else has done, but itís potentially a much richer learning route.   All part of the fun!