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Author Topic: Wheels and spokes  (Read 1877 times)

StefanN

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Wheels and spokes
« on: 02 December 2019, 07:39:17 am »
I finally had a chance to look over my cyclekart for the first time since the last outing.

Almost all the spokes on my rear right wheel had become loose.   I know the wheel was fine in the run-up to the day because I check by sound and feel as part of prepping the ck.

I’m guessing this is down to stretch but I don’t know whether it’s normal for wire wheels to “settle” like that or whether it’s an indication of a problem.

Lesson learned: check wheels more often.

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RhysN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #1 on: 02 December 2019, 10:59:00 am »
It's pretty normal for spokes to loosen, why? Cheaper wheels seem to be more susceptible.
Obviously if someone just randomly tightens they can easily go out of round or straight
Another reason for logbooks and scrutineering I believe.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2019, 11:02:15 am by RhysN »

StefanN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #2 on: 02 December 2019, 05:47:41 pm »
It's pretty normal for spokes to loosen, why? Cheaper wheels seem to be more susceptible.
Obviously if someone just randomly tightens they can easily go out of round or straight
Another reason for logbooks and scrutineering I believe.
I had no idea its normal.   So come on - who else has had the spokes on one wheel go loose with one day of driving?  What causes it?  What did you do to prevent it?   

Rhys - I don't follow the logbook/scrutineering comment?  Please can you expand a little.

ChrisS

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #3 on: 02 December 2019, 08:01:30 pm »
we musn't lose sight of the fact that our wheels are designed for bikes, which do not experience the lateral forces that our wheels do.

RhysN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #4 on: 02 December 2019, 08:20:34 pm »
It's pretty normal for spokes to loosen, why? Cheaper wheels seem to be more susceptible.
Obviously if someone just randomly tightens they can easily go out of round or straight
Another reason for logbooks and scrutineering I believe.
I had no idea its normal.   So come on - who else has had the spokes on one wheel go loose with one day of driving?  What causes it?  What did you do to prevent it?   

Rhys - I don't follow the logbook/scrutineering comment?  Please can you expand a little.
I'll call you.

TheGiantTribble

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #5 on: 02 December 2019, 11:23:00 pm »
Expensive bikes can have this problem,
I'll just leave this here...https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2019/january/bmw-r1200gs-r-ninet-loose-spokes/

StefanN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #6 on: 08 December 2019, 04:35:23 pm »
In case you’ve not seen it there’s a helpful summary of various experiences with wheels and spokes on the US site
https://www.cyclekartclub.com/forum/cyclekart-tech-forum.2/wheels-and-spokes.46301/

Little French

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #7 on: 09 December 2019, 08:42:27 am »
we musn't lose sight of the fact that our wheels are designed for bikes, which do not experience the lateral forces that our wheels do.

hello all
I agree with Chris, and this problem gets worse with a bad track !!
a little example after only two days of racing on earth, The good news is that the repair is very simple, just tighten the nuts of the spokes ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bufgCx9lj3Q
Aging is mandatory, growing up is optional .....

StefanN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #8 on: 17 December 2019, 05:06:21 pm »
For those that might be interested, I've done some calculations based on a simplified model of the wheel to compare lateral strength of a pit bike wheel vs Honda C90 wheel.

Pit bike wheel: 32 spokes, spoke diameter 3.15mm, hub width 70mm, diameter of hub where spokes attached 75mm
Honda C90 wheel: 36 spokes, spoke diameter 3.6mm, hub width 54mm, diameter of hub where spokes attached 142mm

With the above geometry, spoke size and spoke count,  I estimate the pit bike wheel is 20-25% weaker laterally than the Honda wheel.  Interestingly, most of that appears to be down to the spoke diameter.

I did some more calculations to estimate the lateral forces on the wheels a a tight fast corner but there were too many unknown significant factors (Ck geometry, weight distribution, tyre friction, road surface, tyre spring, unevenness of the ground etc) to make the results meaningful.

RhysN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #9 on: 18 December 2019, 01:10:58 pm »
That's interesting! My pitbike wheels have thicker spokes than the Honda!

Little French

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #10 on: 18 December 2019, 01:41:57 pm »
For me, the two major shortcomings of Honda Wheels are:

- The hub is hollow and requires a reinforcement plate, and even with this reinforcement, the bolts have no real force ! Just look at the broken wheels at our American friends...
- The price which is + - 3 times higher

For the example, The Honda wheel just broke at the hub, the Dirt wheel just bent with a more violent impact
But this only engages me ... ;)
« Last Edit: 18 December 2019, 01:49:26 pm by Little French »
Aging is mandatory, growing up is optional .....

StefanN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #11 on: 18 December 2019, 01:58:21 pm »
That's interesting! My pitbike wheels have thicker spokes than the Honda!
Any chance you could share measurements - I had assumed they’d all be the same on the standard SDG hub.   If not it’ll be worth checking spoke diameter when buying because it’s not normally given on adverts.

RhysN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #12 on: 18 December 2019, 03:12:39 pm »
That's interesting! My pitbike wheels have thicker spokes than the Honda!
Any chance you could share measurements - I had assumed they’d all be the same on the standard SDG hub.   If not it’ll be worth checking spoke diameter when buying because it’s not normally given on adverts.
Well my pitbike wheels measure as 3.57 and the genuine Honda at 3.26.
Fabrice, that looks like a rear wheel failure on the Honda type, and a front collision on the pitbike, is that a fair comparison? Of course I have no idea of the hub arrangement. It looks very much to me that the wheel had almost no support?
Personally my hubs/axle for either always pass right through to the outside edge of the wheel to support it all the way through rather than rely on die cast.

ChrisS

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #13 on: 18 December 2019, 06:08:24 pm »
I think this is another minefield!  You may recall I bought 11 Honda wheels from ebay last year.  Well 8 were C90 wheels and they had 3 different sizes of spokes - smallest 2.67mm, most common 2.9mm, largest 3.05mm.

The other 3 were 17 x 1.6 rims with slightly chunkier hubs, they were Honda but I'm not sure what and they all had 3.22mm spokes.

There is a good chance with used Honda wheels that they will have been respoked at some point so I agree with Stefan, take care when buying unseen.

I'll check which ones I've been running on, I'm worried now!

RhysN

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Re: Wheels and spokes
« Reply #14 on: 18 December 2019, 09:34:40 pm »
There is the generic term "CT110" for these wheels which cover everything from the very basic 50 through the trail 90's and 110cc versions, as well as the different bearing diameters. As Chris says, a minefield, and most sellers just want to get rid of them, rather than being too careful about measuring. Unless you can check them yourself, it's all a bit of  pig in a poke.